The Great Pit Debate

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That Kode Guy
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:01 pm

*opens can of worms*

Why are people so gung-ho about a pit anyway? It's boring. Wedge and Clamp RPs will get reduced to nothing more than "open pit, shove bot down it. Keep it up until he's shoved down.", and spinner RPs will always have "avoid pit". I understand it's a Robot Wars novelty, but it makes for real anti-climactic fights. :/ All instant-KO hazards are, even OOTAs to a degree.

Consider the following. Tank is a 6WD rammer. Revolver Ocelot is a 4WD horizontal spinner. With a pit there, Tank is at some point going to be able to slow Ocelot's bar down and get him down the pit.

Let's face it; most spinners weapons get slowed down at some point in the match and they are helpless. Putting in something like a pit makes the game less fun.

However, I do want to ask why some people here find a pit hazard entertaining. Justifiably.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:06 pm

As I said, I will not enter any tournament that features a arena with a pit, nor staff said tournament for that matter, for the reasons listed above and anything else from the Ruination thread.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:10 pm

I will also, again, openly admit that I had a Robot Wars-style arena during C&B: Hypothesis called The Battlegrounds. It was virtually identical to the RW arena. People were not so happy with it and my plans to do another one (especially after that long delay as well) went out the window.

The updated Battlegrounds again would have had a pit for this tournament, but I decided to get rid of it. I'm also extremely considering making the arena enclosed to prevent OOTAs.

And just to be clear, this is not a shot at Playzooki or any other single person; rather I thank him for bringing that up. I am speaking to the public in general. Why a pit?
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:35 pm

Wait, hang on. You also want to enclose the arena? There's something that has quite understandable reasons behind it even if it is unpopular (IE. No Pit), but enclosing the Arena as well is just going too far. If there's no Pit, no OOTAing possibility, and presumably no Drop Zone either for dropping washing machines on Undercutters, then what's the point in having it as an alternate arena if it doesn't deviate from what we have already?

I'm very sorry to be blunt about it, but it'll just be the same as the ARC Arena, except with no Drum/Killsaws and a Floor Flipper in their place.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by Probably Rob » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:37 pm

I have no problem with pit hazards, because to me, it adds suspense of "aww, who's going in!?".

The only problem I have with pit hazards, is a "pit release" button, it should've always been after a certain amount of time, but that's off-topic as this is roleplaying, hah.

I don't mind pit hazards, as it adds entertainment, but, again, to me.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:40 pm

Well GF93, to be fair, I was also considering deleting the Battlegrounds from the Arenas list as well and having done with it. But too far? Seriously? If you want to leave OOTAs in, then it's as simple as "oh, just get him over the fence". We don't want to make flippers overpowered. We don't want to make ANY robots overpowered. There must be balance. And judging by your post, you seem unable to accept that.

But of course, you haven't given your opinion on the pit. So why are you posting here?
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NFX » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:44 pm

The whole point, Alex, is to remove the possibility of an instant KO, thus rendering the rest of the match completely pointless. If one robot is dominating the match, then gets pitted or flipped out of the arena with 10 seconds to go, then the winning robot wasn't really the best bot in the fight, and doesn't entirely deserve the victory, in my view. And if a bot was specialised to take advantage of the instant KO potential, then that doesn't give the opponent a chance to retaliate in any way. It also gets rid of the chance of a fluke elimination thanks to a driving error or something like that.

And as you keep saying yourself, Tough As Nails was specifically designed to take advantage of the instant KO potential of the pit, which was extremely boring and sucked all the fun out of the match. So I know this might aggravate some people, but I think you're being a bit hypocritical here. My view is that it would be best if the instant KO potential was taken out, in order to ensure a fair and free fight. You can still take control of the opponent and deliver them to the hazards, though, or flip the opponent around the arena as you would with any other flipper.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:45 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Rob Collins</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 05:37 PM</dd></dl><div> I have no problem with pit hazards, because to me, it adds suspense of "aww, who's going in&#33;?". The only problem I have with pit hazards, is a "pit release" button, it should've always been after a certain amount of time. But, again, to me. [/quote]
This. It's good to have that extra element of excitement and suspense to the fight, and it gives designs like Flippers and Rammers more of a chance against things like Axes and the ubiquitous Spinners.
Plus, next to OOTAing, it's one of my favourite means of finishing off a KOed opponent- open the Pit, push them down, and send 'em on a one-way trip to oblivion in a ball of smoke.


But I do agree that it shouldn't be allowed just whenever- when you have that, you get an increase in Cheap as Chips-esque designs that rely solely on that and that alone to win their fights.
How I'd personally approach it would be to have a releasing bumper (Much like in RW Series 6), but it'd only work in the last minute of the fight or if an opponent has been immobilised as a means of disposal, and never opening automatically.

That way, the more destructive designs would have a good period of time in which to garner KOs on damage, whilst more strategic ones that lack conventional firepower will also have a chance to win depending on their ability to survive and fight back, instead of having to be thrashed by spinners at every turn. Just a thought, but eh.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by Probably Rob » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:55 pm

> I have no problem
> The only problem I have

Yeah, I could've worded that better, hah&#33;


I would like to add, that, for a third time, 'to me', it's the role-play that counts, not the hazard.

If I were dominating 99% of the match, then all of a sudden, I get slightly nudged and fall into the pit, or I drive carelessly into it, I wouldn't mind, because if the role-play is entertaining, then I'm happy.

You should probably all chill out. Then again, e-robot combat is serious business&#33;

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:57 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:45 PM</dd></dl><div>This. It's good to have that extra element of excitement and suspense to the fight, and it gives designs like Flippers and Rammers more of a chance against things like Axes and the ubiquitous Spinners.[/quote]

What.

Rammers and flippers have been exceedingly dominant in the CFL recent and not-so-recent past. Underall, Tank, Copperhead, Barrier, Eurypterus, Striker, Zombie Killer, Sarge, even my own Shadow Zone Forever and BlackRose. Hell, your own Conqueror made the CBBR finals&#33; So where do you get off telling me they aren't even better against axes/spinners?

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:45 PM</dd></dl><div>Plus, next to OOTAing, it's one of my favourite means of finishing off a KOed opponent- open the Pit, push them down, and send 'em on a one-way trip to oblivion in a ball of smoke.[/quote]

Fair enough.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:45 PM</dd></dl><div>But I do agree that it shouldn't be allowed just whenever- when you have that, you get an increase in Cheap as Chips-esque designs that rely solely on that and that alone to win their fights.[/quote]

I take it you're referencing Tough As Nails, correct? That machine was entirely designed to do that. Without a pit, however, designs like that and Flank Attack would have a more difficult time, but it's interesting to see them find different ways of winning. I personally really like Flank Attack and Siphai is one of the best RPers on here, so I totally think that he could go far with it. But yes, we're not going to give him a pit to cheaply dump bots in.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:45 PM</dd></dl><div>How I'd personally approach it would be to have a releasing bumper (Much like in RW Series 6), but it'd only work in the last minute of the fight or if an opponent has been immobilised as a means of disposal, and never opening automatically. [/quote]

How about not at all? Like NFX said, to get dumped in the pit 10 seconds before the end, after you've pretty much dominated the fight, is ridiculous.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:45 PM</dd></dl><div>That way, the more destructive designs would have a good period of time in which to garner KOs on damage, whilst more strategic ones that lack conventional firepower will also have a chance to win depending on their ability to survive and fight back, instead of having to be thrashed by spinners at every turn. Just a thought, but eh.[/quote]

There are bots that have taken a lot of damage and survived to win. They don't need a pit.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NFX » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:59 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 10:45 PM</dd></dl><div> it gives designs like Flippers and Rammers more of a chance against things like Axes and the ubiquitous Spinners. [/quote]
Kraze, Braveheart, Pursuit, Cutie Honey, BlackRose, Servant's Assistant 2, Sarge, I could go on. Rammers and flippers have been able to hold up against spinners well enough since the new stat system was implemented, I doubt there's much of a great disparity between spinners and rammers with regards to success since the stat overhaul, Jinx has had success as an axe, Hector LeMans managed to do well as a drum or vertical spinner or whatever it was. There's plenty of different designs that are capable of success if they're designed well and teamed with good effective strategies. Certain types of robots don't become overpowered simply because you haven't had success against them.

That post took longer than it probably should have done.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:13 pm

...well, I'm not going to win this one. I like them myself and did considering using a custom arena with one in for DOW, but as Josh said, that would've probably gotten it boycotted, so I ultimately decided against it.
It's good to see that you don't completely disagree with it as a means of finishing an opponent off, though- perhaps maybe one could be there, but would be unmarked but spotlighted when opened, like how it was in Panic Attack's fight against Rammstein in Series 4's War of Independence-
Image
-and would only open up when one robot has definitely been immobilised, just as a little extra Arena Feature.
Basically, so the Winner could say, finish an opponent by pushing them into it, or celebrate by driving into it themselves for fun, perhaps. It sounds odd, but I do think it could work- nothing to actually affect match outcomes, but make the ends of matches that end in KOs/TKOs that bit more interesting, so to speak. :v:
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:16 pm

So the guy that got upset when one of his bots allegedly got attacked after a fight wants bots to be able to continue attacking after the fight? Gotcha.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:17 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:16 PM</dd></dl><div> So the guy that got upset when notepad allegedly attacked after a fight wants bots to be able to continue attacking after the fight? Gotcha. [/quote]
...what?
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NFX » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:19 pm

One of your points was that Mouser Mecha Catbot's driver was upset that the Pulverizers attacked his robot after the fight had ended. And now you're advocating attacking a robot after the fight has ended with the pit.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 11:13 PM</dd></dl><div> -and would only open up when one robot has definitely been immobilised, [/quote]
Again, if a robot has definitely been immobilised, then the fight is over. So there is no need for a pit. It would be too unbalanced with regards to the other hazards DURING the fight, and would become completely redundant AFTER the fight, so there's really no point at all in having it.
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