Design debate and other stuff

Find all your ARC RPGs and fantasy leagues discussed here. We're good at this stuff.

Moderator: Tournament Hosts

Post Reply
User avatar
That Kode Guy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

Design debate and other stuff

Post by That Kode Guy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:53 am

Okay, so, since a few members have joined us recently, I've wanted to get something off my chest. And that is how some of the older members (myself included) used to do things.

Back in ARC: Aftermath, when I first became a writer, I was introduced to the rules of the time. Based on the opinions of the other writers, the rules, and what I watched on Battlebots (and Robot Wars), I wrote as best as I could. Admittedly there were some hiccups (SWAT vs. Mobile Failure for one) but I feel I did a good job.

Which leads into today. Me and a few other older writers are now getting questioned by people who "know how things work", allegedly. Rather than argue with them, I want to know why they think this.

Let's go into a few examples, including a more recent one. Lifters.

I've written lifting arms as being held in place for as long as I can remember and I'm pretty sure Chris, Josh, Alex Mac, and Philip wrote them like that as well. Stuff like Barrier could be gotten under, but its hinged skirting flanking the lifter made it hard to get under. The old Prof. Pepperdine, I think, had a big problem because its lifter was constantly gotten under. SWAT was a different story because it was a quick little son of a bitch, but it also had its moments. Road Rage, Hellraiser Hybrid, Shovearound 2, etc... all of them had the same problems. On my end of things, I've had stuff like BlackRose and Mimete fall prey to this. Hell, even WhipCoil post FRR5 had this happen. Now we're being introduced to the "fact" that lifters actually can't be held in place, and that we should change our writing based on that? I don't understand.

Another thing is with the flat edge wedge vs. pronged wedge scenario, which got me incredibly riled up when Drew called BS on the WL result. I've used my discretion a lot for those damn things when writing results and I know Chris, Josh, and Alex Mac did too. There's a lot of guesswork when it comes down to figuring out who has the better wedge. Is the guy 2WD? Does the other guy have a lifter? How steep are the wedges? What's the leverage? Width? Is that a spike lifter? :V

And then Noah just throws a fuckin' formula at me. "lol pressure = force / area" Which I'm already well aware of. So what exactly is that supposed to convey to me? :V

What about spinner knockback? I've always thought that if you lose all contact with the ground, and you hit something with your spinner, you should go flying across the arena. Depending on your set-up.
What about low-power srimechs? As long as the design element is there, they should work. Every person wrote it for SZF's 1-power flipper.
What about walkers? What about walkers? :V

And so on and so forth...

Now look, I'm not trying to make too many excuses for what I'm doing, but rather than being told "that's not how things work so you can't do that" I want to hear some different takes.
Image
ARC ShitShow
Team Covenant

Ruination: The Upheaval:
Anti-Virus = 8-1 (overall = 27-13) / Plata O Plomo = 4-3 / Devil's Verdict = 0-7 / Tax Cutter = 10-0 (overall = 27-10) [SHW CHAMPION!!!]
TOTAL = 22-11


ARC CAREER = 520-238

User avatar
V900
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Ironic joke location where I don't actually live.

Design debate and other stuff

Post by V900 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:57 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>That Kode Guy</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:53 AM</dd></dl><div>And then Noah just throws a fuckin' formula at me. "lol pressure = force / area" What exactly is that supposed to convey to me? :V[/quote]Ever wonder why you can't stab someone with a spoon?

User avatar
That Kode Guy
Posts: 9085
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Etobicoke, Canada
Contact:

Design debate and other stuff

Post by That Kode Guy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:58 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>V900</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:57 AM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>That Kode Guy</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:53 AM</dd></dl><div>And then Noah just throws a fuckin' formula at me. "lol pressure = force / area" What exactly is that supposed to convey to me? :V[/quote]Ever wonder why you can't stab someone with a spoon?[/quote]ninja edit
Image
ARC ShitShow
Team Covenant

Ruination: The Upheaval:
Anti-Virus = 8-1 (overall = 27-13) / Plata O Plomo = 4-3 / Devil's Verdict = 0-7 / Tax Cutter = 10-0 (overall = 27-10) [SHW CHAMPION!!!]
TOTAL = 22-11


ARC CAREER = 520-238

Avalanche
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Design debate and other stuff

Post by Avalanche » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:00 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>V900</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:57 AM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>That Kode Guy</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:53 AM</dd></dl><div>And then Noah just throws a fuckin' formula at me. "lol pressure = force / area" What exactly is that supposed to convey to me? :V[/quote]Ever wonder why you can't stab someone with a spoon?[/quote]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

User avatar
V900
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Ironic joke location where I don't actually live.

Design debate and other stuff

Post by V900 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:32 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Avalanche</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 02:00 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>V900</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:57 AM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>That Kode Guy</dt><dd>Mar 21 2018, 11:53 AM</dd></dl><div>And then Noah just throws a fuckin' formula at me. "lol pressure = force / area" What exactly is that supposed to convey to me? :V[/quote]Ever wonder why you can't stab someone with a spoon?[/quote]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y
[/quote]
I retract my argument.

User avatar
Shaba117
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Parts Unknown
Contact:

Design debate and other stuff

Post by Shaba117 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:30 pm

I think the issue here is mainly a disparity between various skill levels. Personally, I fall somewhere between the 'hurr durr memebots and mem-ey RPs' and 'This is you brain on Engineering-any questions?'. And while I'm involved in irl robots, I definitely don't think I'm an expert here. I came over from Reddit after competing in HammerFall, Pressure Drop, and the Monkeywrench tournaments and there was a noticeable increase in technical rules and guidelines. Just how technical do we need to become, though? I understand there are those that enjoy a higher degree of detail with designing their bots and including that in their RPs. The problem with that is that the writer of said match result may not be as knowledgeable and would be unable to interpret their RP to the degree that the RP'er would like-maybe to the point of leaving what would be a crucial detail that would decidedly change the outcome of the match.

Personally, I'd choose not to go into such detail. Sure, I can learn-I enjoy learning new things about irl bots and what works and what doesn't work. However, this isn't irl, and trying to determine what works and what doesn't just isn't the same. We can only determine so much of a robot's capability based off a CAD (and that's best-case scenario, as we have more 'rudimentary' entries). Even that varies, as we have a wide variation of CAD skills amongst members. We strive to design bots 'within reason', as tournament rules state, along with more specific guidelines that can vary from tournament to tournament.

I'm still a novice results writer and definitely still 'feeling my way' here. I look at both bots' designs, then stats, then the RPs themselves. If this is a normal group-stage match, I don't tend to look too in-depth (and I just don't have the time to). Usually, looking at the combination of those things helps me enough to determine a winner. I also have the tournament rules available to reference. If I still cannot determine a clear winner, then I reference past match RPs and results for that contestant. If I'm still unsure at that point, then I'm literally flipping a coin.

What I'm ultimately getting at here is that there is no perfect system to determine a winner in certain scenarios. That part can be seen irl. There have been controversial decisions and there will always be controversial decisions. We change the rules, but the fact of the matter is still the same.

All in all, this is a game-purely a fantasy tournament with no tangible prize at the end. And that is how I will be treating this :)
Image

User avatar
The_Angry_Goat
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Above, below, and behind you, but never exactly where you are looking.

Design debate and other stuff

Post by The_Angry_Goat » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:55 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmX5XgG3oYQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGI-Ozh ... lF&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkOWC5jVzuc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fKJ1IZtIVg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3sZU0S1ns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7ThUUX ... FA0IA2PsTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkB2X3l ... FA0IA2PsTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDOqi2Pkp0


look at all these lifters that sit passively on the ground even when not pressed into the ground.

do you really want someone who's watched some robots, thought "huh, this is cool" and then found ARC to be confused by the fact that things don't work the way they clearly work there on this website?

but like, seriously, yall seem to think I'm suggesting lifters can't lift at all and immediately flop to the ground as soon as the motor stops, which isn't true. but what's also not true is the fact that you seem to think they have eternal clearance underneath them if they aren't pressed.

also if people are gonna start interpreting lifters wedging ability like this halfway through the tournament I want to be allowed to edit Khnum and Glitch's signups to say that the lifters are gear driven and therefore rest on the ground like a hinged wedge when not in use :V
‽ ROBOTICS (199 - 102 lifetime)
MAJOR CHAMPIONS: Lightweight//Ruination 4//NICK'S FUZZY RULES

Thunderground
armchair Astronaut: 0-0
You Have Excellent Taste In shirts: 0-0
Handgun Bobcat: 0-0
Delorean Cowboy: 0-0


ROBOT2
Hat Garage: 6-3
Lilian: 5-3
Blue Max: 3-4
Neuromancer: 4-4


im my own god ~MassimoV
That's nice, dear. Have you considered being your own god somewhere else? ~Rocket_III
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Madman
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Fighting in the shade

Design debate and other stuff

Post by Madman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 pm

Uh yeah, I see no reason for a standard, gear-driven lifter (this isn't 2000 where people all use linear actuators) to have its rest position randomly above the ground. I've always written lifters as behaving like hinged wedges when not actively being used, and the lifters that I've made, like Hellhound, have always worked that way. Not sure how or why this is a debate now.

FTR, I'm not some super engineer. Just a guy who keeps up with the scene, applies common sense, and tries to know a bit about robotics and engineering. I'm 100% on the same page as Gabe with this one.
ARC Record: 420-1

Pretty much the best person on ARC

User avatar
Hooray For Lexan
Posts: 586
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Design debate and other stuff

Post by Hooray For Lexan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:52 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Which leads into today. Me and a few other older writers are now getting questioned by people who "know how things work", allegedly.[/quote]

I'm scared :V

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Rather than argue with them, I want to know why they think this.[/quote]

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I've written lifting arms as being held in place for as long as I can remember and I'm pretty sure Chris, Josh, Alex Mac, and Philip wrote them like that as well. Stuff like Barrier could be gotten under, but its hinged skirting flanking the lifter made it hard to get under. The old Prof. Pepperdine, I think, had a big problem because its lifter was constantly gotten under. SWAT was a different story because it was a quick little son of a bitch, but it also had its moments. Road Rage, Hellraiser Hybrid, Shovearound 2, etc... all of them had the same problems. On my end of things, I've had stuff like BlackRose and Mimete fall prey to this. Hell, even WhipCoil post FRR5 had this happen. Now we're being introduced to the "fact" that lifters actually can't be held in place, and that we should change our writing based on that? I don't understand.[/quote]

Not quite sure what you're referring to. Are you meaning that an opponent can hold a lifter in place and prevent it from opening? If it's that, then absolutely: lifters don't generally have that much force so a clamp or crusher can hold them in place.

If you're talking about a lifter's tip sitting just above the ground when in "neutral" position, vs. gravity moving it until it's flush with the ground... it depends on the lifter. As Laz said, generally a gear-driven lifter will descend under its own weight until it's touching the ground, because the mechanism is backdriveable - you can apply a force to the output and it will move the input. Sewer Snake and Breaker Box behave like this. A linear-actuator-driven lifter is usually NOT backdriveable: if you push or pull on a leadscrew it "locks" under its own friction, as will a worm gearbox. A lifter that uses them should behave like a static wedge because its own weight can't move it.

Note that a four-bar lifter can still be powered by gears (e.g. Test Bot, Flatpack IRL), and a single-hinged lifter can be powered by a linear actuator (e.g. Voltronic, Panic Attack IRL).

Also, there are a couple of fancy drivetrains that are exceptions to this rule. However, they're also rare, and IMO shouldn't be assumed unless someone explicitly mentions them in their signup post.

* Worm gears, cycloidal reducers, harmonic drives. These are rotary reducers, but they are NOT backdriveable. In ARC, Solifuge uses a cycloidal reducer (I don't need backdriveability since it's 2WD), and Clown Recluse uses a harmonic drive to rotate its weapon pod (the thing locks in place anyway).

* Ballscrews. These are a type of linear actuator that has low enough friction that they ARE backdriveable, although the force to do so may exceed the lifting arm's weight. IRL examples are Biohazard and at least part of S1 Overhaul's weapon.

In general, given the massive advantage to a lifter acting like a hinged wedge, IMO writers should treat them as doing so unless their creator's signup post unambiguously shows or says that the drivetrain is non-backdriveable.


<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Another thing is with the flat edge wedge vs. pronged wedge scenario, which got me incredibly riled up when Drew called BS on the WL result. I've used my discretion a lot for those damn things when writing results and I know Chris, Josh, and Alex Mac did too. There's a lot of guesswork when it comes down to figuring out who has the better wedge. Is the guy 2WD? Does the other guy have a lifter? How steep are the wedges? What's the leverage? Width? Is that a spike lifter? :V[/quote]

Lol. Honestly the way I write it is, all else being equal, narrower wedges will usually get under wider ones, but if it's close it's not going to be consistent, and it isn't consistent IRL. In a particular matchup, one robot might not get under the other from the front every time.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>What about spinner knockback? I've always thought that if you lose all contact with the ground, and you hit something with your spinner, you should go flying across the arena. Depending on your set-up.[/quote]

Who the heck was arguing otherwise? That's completely correct for horizontal spinners. The only time it might not happen is if the spinner just doesn't get enough bite to transfer much momentum, and just pops itself in the air a little. Usually in a situation where a vertical spinner loses ground contact it's either going to throw itself vertically (e.g. hitting while inverted, hitting a wedge with no feeder wedge and getting enough bite to bounce off) or just grind against its opponent (hitting a wedge with no feeder wedge).

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>What about low-power srimechs? As long as the design element is there, they should work. Every person wrote it for SZF's 1-power flipper.[/quote]

A 1-power flipper or a lifter by definition has enough power to lift/flip the robot's weight still, so it should work as long as it has sufficient range of motion. The same goes for dedicated srimech arms. However, if the geometry is bad, a low-power lifter or flipper might be unable to right a robot - e.g. Storm 2 couldn't self-right with its 4-bar lifter, the original Diotoir couldn't self-right with its flipper. IMO hammers are a different story: they have less force at the tip of the arm, and if the hammer is underpowered they may not be able to overcome their own weight. IRL, Killertron could NOT self-right, despite its shape and range of motion looking like it should be able to.

Yay, doesn't seem like I'm the subject of any of these complaints :V

User avatar
BEES
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA

Design debate and other stuff

Post by BEES » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:08 pm

If Earth isn't flat how come wedges are flat? Shouldn't they be round? Answer that roundtards&#33;

Post Reply