LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NFX » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:15 pm

I'll admit that match against Latvian Gambit was a lot closer than I thought. Great to see the LW fights going the way that they did, though, should make for a hell of a good final. Looking forward to seeing who all comes out on top.

okay i will play your little game siphai :v:
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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by Siphai » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:42 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Aug 22 2015, 08:15 PM</dd></dl><div>I'll admit that match against Latvian Gambit was a lot closer than I thought. Great to see the LW fights going the way that they did, though, should make for a hell of a good final. Looking forward to seeing who all comes out on top.

okay i will play your little game siphai :v:[/quote]i actually tricked myself here because i didnt finish reading your post

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by Siphai » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:42 pm

that should be literally impossible to do but i'm really dumb

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by MadBull » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:58 pm

thank god the results are written now

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NFX » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:00 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Aug 22 2015, 08:15 PM</dd></dl><div>I'll admit that match against Latvian Gambit was a lot closer than I thought. Great to see the LW fights going the way that they did, though, should make for a hell of a good final. Looking forward to seeing who all comes out on top.

okay i will play your little game siphai :v:[/quote]I love that this post still applies now the results are actually up.

Very, very good match between myself and Martijn over the Middleweight final spot, Latvian Gambit's obviously a tricky design for DC to fight in its current guise. There's a pretty good spread of entrants over the four weight classes, so it'll be interesting to see who comes out on top. Although of the eight finalists, five of them are lifters. One pure rammer, one thwacking wedge and one hammerbot make up the rest. Looks like that could be the way to go in future.
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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NWOWWE » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:02 am

I will not give up on spinners&#33;
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by Siphai » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:12 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Aug 25 2015, 10:00 AM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Aug 22 2015, 08:15 PM</dd></dl><div>I'll admit that match against Latvian Gambit was a lot closer than I thought. Great to see the LW fights going the way that they did, though, should make for a hell of a good final. Looking forward to seeing who all comes out on top.

okay i will play your little game siphai :v:[/quote]I love that this post still applies now the results are actually up.

Very, very good match between myself and Martijn over the Middleweight final spot, Latvian Gambit's obviously a tricky design for DC to fight in its current guise. There's a pretty good spread of entrants over the four weight classes, so it'll be interesting to see who comes out on top. Although of the eight finalists, five of them are lifters. One pure rammer, one thwacking wedge and one hammerbot make up the rest. Looks like that could be the way to go in future.[/quote]No spinners? Looks like it's time for another knee jerk buff to spinners.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by Siphai » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:12 pm

I won't stop changing the rules until the finalists are all spinners.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by playzooki » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:47 pm

spinners get an automatic +12 bonus to the weapon. also the self-ko rule doesnt count.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NWOWWE » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:58 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Siphai</dt><dd>Aug 25 2015, 04:12 PM</dd></dl><div>No spinners? Looks like it's time for another knee jerk buff to spinners. [/quote]To be fair I don't think spinners themselves have ever been really "buffed". Most of the rule tweaking seems to directly affect rammers and the like and spinners become more or less viable depending on how the rules are updated. There were 8 spinners in the LoRE playoffs. Only 3 of them won a match, and none of them made it to the finals. What's even more incredible about that is that NONE of the spinners fought another spinner in the playoffs, they were all eliminated by a rammer or some kind of rammer-ish bot&#33; Spinners go 3-8 against the competition, so that's 2-3 wins away just from being balanced, let alone in the spinners favor&#33;

I mean as it is now, if you slap an ABR style wedge/plow on your bot and have at least 9 or 10 armor on it (with or without a bonus), it's pretty darn easy to wall most spinners completely unless that spinner is willing to have such a high powered weapon that it's putting itself at a huge self-KO chance. Practically all spinners max out at 14 weapon power and if they're lucky they'd have 6 speed, but usually it averages at 5. Rammers will typically average at minimum 7 speed and pretty much always have better control/maneuverability by default. This makes it nigh on impossible for spinners to ever hit anything except flat armor that they can't even damage.

As an aside, by my quick count through the CFL list, of the 82 (soon to be 86) current champions, 21 have been spinners. This puts it at almost perfectly on 25% or in other words 1 champion per 4 weight class tournament is a spinner. Now I haven't gone through the numbers too closely, but I'd be willing to bet money that that ratio has actually been decreasing over time. Even if we throw in the numbers from Crazy Bots, only 2 of the 8 finalists are spinners, and coincidentally those two spinners are #1 and #2 on the highest weapon power in that tournament iirc (MDU certainly is the most powerful and I don't think any other spinner had a higher weapon stat than Spike). Now we also would have to take into account that CB is also done under the previous ruleset that didn't have a self-KO rule (which is why these bots were able to get away with very high weapon power). I'll allow that that CB also didn't have the new armor damage scale either so bots like MDU and Spike could get away with being exceptionally slow because it didn't matter where they hit their opponents. Ultimately though, if CB was under the newer rules, MDU and Spike would have noticeably different stats and maybe neither of them are finalists as a result. As entries went, there was already virtually zero chance of a spinner winning in HW (because there was only like one spinner in that entire weight class and it wasn't a great design to begin with), and it's not like there was a plethora of top tier spinners waiting in the wings in the other divisions either.

Maybe I am more partial to spinners than rammers, but it definitely seems that any time more than 1 spinner wins in a single tournament there seems to be an immediate outcry that spinners are getting too powerful, while when rammers sweep all 4 weight classes, it's not seen as too worrisome and we just go ahead business as usual. :P

Blah, words. :v:
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by Siphai » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:42 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Aug 26 2015, 07:58 AM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Siphai</dt><dd>Aug 25 2015, 04:12 PM</dd></dl><div>No spinners? Looks like it's time for another knee jerk buff to spinners. [/quote]To be fair I don't think spinners themselves have ever been really "buffed". Most of the rule tweaking seems to directly affect rammers and the like and spinners become more or less viable depending on how the rules are updated. There were 8 spinners in the LoRE playoffs. Only 3 of them won a match, and none of them made it to the finals. What's even more incredible about that is that NONE of the spinners fought another spinner in the playoffs, they were all eliminated by a rammer or some kind of rammer-ish bot&#33; Spinners go 3-8 against the competition, so that's 2-3 wins away just from being balanced, let alone in the spinners favor&#33;

I mean as it is now, if you slap an ABR style wedge/plow on your bot and have at least 9 or 10 armor on it (with or without a bonus), it's pretty darn easy to wall most spinners completely unless that spinner is willing to have such a high powered weapon that it's putting itself at a huge self-KO chance. Practically all spinners max out at 14 weapon power and if they're lucky they'd have 6 speed, but usually it averages at 5. Rammers will typically average at minimum 7 speed and pretty much always have better control/maneuverability by default. This makes it nigh on impossible for spinners to ever hit anything except flat armor that they can't even damage.

As an aside, by my quick count through the CFL list, of the 82 (soon to be 86) current champions, 21 have been spinners. This puts it at almost perfectly on 25% or in other words 1 champion per 4 weight class tournament is a spinner. Now I haven't gone through the numbers too closely, but I'd be willing to bet money that that ratio has actually been decreasing over time. Even if we throw in the numbers from Crazy Bots, only 2 of the 8 finalists are spinners, and coincidentally those two spinners are #1 and #2 on the highest weapon power in that tournament iirc (MDU certainly is the most powerful and I don't think any other spinner had a higher weapon stat than Spike). Now we also would have to take into account that CB is also done under the previous ruleset that didn't have a self-KO rule (which is why these bots were able to get away with very high weapon power). I'll allow that that CB also didn't have the new armor damage scale either so bots like MDU and Spike could get away with being exceptionally slow because it didn't matter where they hit their opponents. Ultimately though, if CB was under the newer rules, MDU and Spike would have noticeably different stats and maybe neither of them are finalists as a result. As entries went, there was already virtually zero chance of a spinner winning in HW (because there was only like one spinner in that entire weight class and it wasn't a great design to begin with), and it's not like there was a plethora of top tier spinners waiting in the wings in the other divisions either.

Maybe I am more partial to spinners than rammers, but it definitely seems that any time more than 1 spinner wins in a single tournament there seems to be an immediate outcry that spinners are getting too powerful, while when rammers sweep all 4 weight classes, it's not seen as too worrisome and we just go ahead business as usual. :P

Blah, words. :v: [/quote]I met that comment as a dig at myself since I'm the one that's mostly been editing the rules lol

Yeah imo the biggest problem with spinners is that there's very little variance in stat design. You could probably argue this for other classes too, but spinners definitely take the cake. It's a problem because it's easy to guard against in terms of, 'what's the minimum armor I need? 10? +2 to front? Got it.'

For now, I'm not actually sure what to do. To be honest, you really can't buff spinners any more than they are, since that's just going to force every robot into the ABR/10 armor format.

I guess one of the problems is that there's not a lot for rammers/lifters to invest in besides armor. 7 speed is typically enough - you're fast enough to deal with 8 speed, and 9 speed is rare, while also being just fast enough to where you can chase down a spinner. Add in matched traction and like 4-5 torque, and you've got enough points left over to dump on armor.

I think I did do a thread where I looked at the demographics of the entrants; I'm not sure if there was a decrease but I'm probably missing 3 of the most recent tournaments as well.

I guess when you get down to it, rammers/lifters (might as well drop the pretense of them being separate robot types) don't really have much in the way of counters. Tooting my own horn, but maybe Heph's success will promote hammers as a possible counter? Couple of times he's run into rammers that have used an armor bonus and taken advantage of it. Flippers are the only other counter, but that's more design dependent anyway.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NWOWWE » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:07 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Tooting my own horn, but maybe Heph's success will promote hammers as a possible counter?[/quote]heph sucks and you're a little bitch :dawg: :P

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I guess one of the problems is that there's not a lot for rammers/lifters to invest in besides armor. 7 speed is typically enough - you're fast enough to deal with 8 speed, and 9 speed is rare, while also being just fast enough to where you can chase down a spinner. Add in matched traction and like 4-5 torque, and you've got enough points left over to dump on armor.[/quote]This is why I was adamant about finding a way to keep the Wedge stat around back then. Granted it had it's flaws, but it force rammers to allocate their a bit more evenly. Unfortunately it got completely scrapped after just a few tournaments before we could try to work out much in the way of improvements or modifications.

At the bare minimum I think there has to be something done to discourage the overwhelming use of ABR style wedges. It's almost like spring loaded wedges before they ended up being disallowed. There was practically no downside to using them instead of regular hinged wedges since they were automatically considered more effective.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by That Kode Guy » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:24 pm

I think maybe we need a hard-lined rule, maybe along the lines of "armour cannot be over [X] value, including armour bonuses".
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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by playzooki » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:32 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>KodeBreaker</dt><dd>Aug 26 2015, 12:24 PM</dd></dl><div>I think maybe we need a hard-lined rule, maybe along the lines of "armour cannot be over [X] value, including armour bonuses".[/quote]I disagree, then spinners would all use the same weapon power and basically the same stats, which imo would be pretty boring.

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LoRE 2: The Other Electric Boogaloo - Discussion

Post by NFX » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:38 pm

What we could do is change the self-KO rule from a set number of points to a proportional rule. Say, if your weapon armour is less than 50% of your Weapon power, then you run the risk of a self-inflicted knockout. At the moment, it's diminishing returns with how much you invest in Weapon (and thus Armour), which we obviously need to do with the incredibly high Armour stats you see on some of the brickiest of brick rammers.
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