FRR: No Mercy - Pre-season Predictions

succotash_54 · Post by **succotash_54** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:38 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I don't think anyone said it was 100% that a static wedge would always lose to a hinged wedge, so I'm not sure where you keep getting that from. Though obviously you still have some belief in the wedge hierarchy yourself since you have magnets on Babaganoush even though I thought we banned magnets a long time ago specifically after bots like Drive and Falling Down And you were around for those so you can't plead ignorance from time away), but whatever.[/quote] That's why I made them electromagnets. Electromagnets can be deactivated if you power down the source for them. Run them on a separate battery and you can power them down on your controller.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Let's be realistic though. You're basically entering an 8+ year old design and it's arguably been de-evolved from previous versions of it you've entered. I say arguably because the last two versions of Yellow Cloud really weren't all that great. The plow version could have been pretty decent, but you gave it ridiculous drive set-up that didn't work. The hinged wedge version had a decent theory behind it, but you also had nothing to hold the bots on the hinged wedge and it was basically flat at ground level so it was really like an open dustpan that bots could easily drive off of.[/quote]

FWIW, I don't think there was anything wrong with the drive setup on the plow. It was novel, but there really wasn't anything that was terrible about it. As for the dustpan, I think they were short enough that once an opponent was up on the hinged wedge, it'd ride up on the main wedge in just a second or two later.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Getting back to Yellow Cloud as entered, take a look at his wedge and take a look at all the other wedges entered in SHW. You're going to have to be busting your ass to get the advantage on most of them, because in an "all things equal" showdown I seriously don't see Yellow Cloud coming out on top on a regular/consistent basis. It's not impossible and come to think of it the Wedge stat may have actually been able to help you here if it was still around. Oh well.[/quote]
Josh, you've known me how long? I think you know that busting my ass is one of the things I do best. I just don't want to be declared DOA because of a fake premise.

As far as the Sux2BU thing, I thought I said "regular season." As in, NOT during the tie-breakers, quarters, semis, or finals. If we're not running enough fights for everyone to face everyone else, than I understand your contention.

And DRD and panicattack have much worse records for reacting badly to losing in the playoffs.

And I'm calling fucking bullshit on your accusation that I like crapping on people's hard effort in RPs. I don't like to do it, but it's a proposition in reaction to those who want matches and results to be more realistic (also responding to your point 1). You may like it that the fights lack the realism that can make an actual fight boring to watch, but everyone in their RPs (you and me included) tries to argue what would "realistically happen" in the kinds of scenarios they conjur up, and there had been tut-tutting about our results not reflecting realism enough. That's how torque became more than pushing power, and why it got swapped in some instances for traction.

NWOWWE · Post by **NWOWWE** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:23 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>That's why I made them electromagnets. Electromagnets can be deactivated if you power down the source for them. Run them on a separate battery and you can power them down on your controller.[/quote]I'm not sure the rules really allow for something like that, and it basically sounds very similar conceptually to the "suspension system" GF tried on his LW a couple seasons ago. That wasn't really allowed without it detracting from his weapon stat since it's basically an active component of your bot. In any case magnets are magnets are magnets and I'm still pretty sure we got rid of them entirely.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>FWIW, I don't think there was anything wrong with the drive setup on the plow. It was novel, but there really wasn't anything that was terrible about it. As for the dustpan, I think they were short enough that once an opponent was up on the hinged wedge, it'd ride up on the main wedge in just a second or two later.[/quote]Well I'm pretty sure Chris and I discussed the scoop set-up drive issue with you at the time. Considering that you were only ever using half your drive at any given time you were unquestionably gimping yourself. If a bot has half it's wheels off the floor it tends to be a bad thing. And you're doing it to yourself! Either way it's all a moot point now.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Josh, you've known me how long? I think you know that busting my ass is one of the things I do best. I just don't want to be declared DOA because of a fake premise.[/quote]This is actually one of the reasons I'm rather shocked that you seem so gung-ho on the sucks to be you thing. I'd have figured you of all people wouldn't want to gamble a (potentially very important) fight on a random chance just for the sake of a "realistic" gimmick. At any rate the main issue comes from the fact that Yellow Cloud is an old has hell design. It would be like if I used the "flat side" Zombie Killer. Yeah it won a championship, but I'd be pretty dumb to still be using THAT bot in today's tournaments.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>And DRD and panicattack have much worse records for reacting badly to losing in the playoffs.[/quote]I was being somewhat facetious with that. Mostly the season where you lost your bots in the first round of the playoffs and then completely took over ALL of the semi-final results the final week (where the rest of the staff members surprisingly ended up losing) came to mind. Bringing up GF is a much more straight example. And I was just drawing from current competitors. Tony didn't rage on the playoffs as much as wipe his ass with his playoffs spots. DRD of course is in class by himself.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> You may like it that the fights lack the realism that can make an actual fight boring to watch[/quote]Well let's be fair, even when you did the scripts you never really included all that "realistic, boring stuff" in those, even though you had full artistic license to do so. And for good reason. No one wants to read that kind of fight or read how bot got caught on cracks in the floor because that happens in "real life". This is CFL. The "fantasy" part is important.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>but everyone in their RPs (you and me included) tries to argue what would "realistically happen" in the kinds of scenarios they conjur up, and there had been tut-tutting about our results not reflecting realism enough.[/quote]Well not completely. I mean to a certain extent you are correct that people will gameplan for what would happen, but I very rarely come across people RPing about the more mundane things like getting caught in floor cracks or after a spinner hits a bot both just sit around doing pretty much nothing for several seconds. I think we can make a distinction between people wanting things represented accurately or wanting them As Seen On TV!

GF93 · Post by **GF93** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:39 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:23 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>That's why I made them electromagnets. Electromagnets can be deactivated if you power down the source for them. Run them on a separate battery and you can power them down on your controller.[/quote]I'm not sure the rules really allow for something like that, and it basically sounds very similar conceptually to the "suspension system" GF tried on his LW a couple seasons ago. That wasn't really allowed without it detracting from his weapon stat since it's basically an active component of your bot. In any case magnets are magnets are magnets and I'm still pretty sure we got rid of them entirely.[/quote]Indeed. Just to clarify, he's referring to Conqueror, which used a suspension system driven by a series of compressed air-powered pumps, as demonstrated below. I'd intended for it to be used to raise or lower its ground clearance to drive over wedges and other robots, lean into its turns to improve agility, and drive its wedge tip into the ground to improve its ability to get under opponents.

Although it was allowed in the end, it caused controversy when it was discovered and I had to alter it so that it was an optional feature- I could still use it, but if I did, it'd take some power away from the Primary Weapon. Basically- I think what Josh means is that these sorts of tertiary features, like skirts that stick down via air pressure or magnets or whatever are allowed, but would have to count as part of the multiple-weapon rule if you did plan on using them.

succotash_54 · Post by **succotash_54** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:53 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:23 PM</dd></dl><div>

[/quote]<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> In any case magnets are magnets are magnets and I'm still pretty sure we got rid of them entirely.[/quote]
I remember them being annoying as hell to deal with, but I don't remember their outright banishment.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Well I'm pretty sure Chris and I discussed the scoop set-up drive issue with you at the time. Considering that you were only ever using half your drive at any given time you were unquestionably gimping yourself. [/quote] I disagreed with that because the point was that the bot was still capable of being that fast and that torquey even with only two wheels on the ground at any time. But yeah moot.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>At any rate the main issue comes from the fact that Yellow Cloud is an old has hell design.[/quote] Old, but not obsolete. And I actually evolved the design a little bit, but no one's noticed. There are a lot of familiar names this season too, so I don't think "old" is at issue.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Mostly the season where you lost your bots in the first round of the playoffs and then completely took over ALL of the semi-final results the final week (where the rest of the staff members surprisingly ended up losing) came to mind.[/quote] I took over the results for efficiency's sake. Since I had no dogs in the fights anymore, I was a completely neutral party. Plus, at that time, I was doing overnight shifts at the station where I had the better part of six hours to do as pleased, pretty much. I wanted to keep things running tight and smooth. The staff losing... that was not intentional. I called those fights equitably as I always strove too. That's the flat-out truth.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Well let's be fair, even when you did the scripts you never really included all that "realistic, boring stuff" in those, even though you had full artistic license to do so. And for good reason. No one wants to read that kind of fight or read how bot got caught on cracks in the floor because that happens in "real life".[/quote]

I've written a few misses and getting caught in scripts before, I think. I don't do it in general because it doesn't lend itself well to the scripting process.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>but I very rarely come across people RPing about the more mundane things like getting caught in floor cracks or after a spinner hits a bot both just sit around doing pretty much nothing for several seconds. [/quote] No, but I did account for those things in my results. Spinners tended to get manhandled because of low torque inhibited their abilities to get back up to speed in time. I even wrote a results where the key in the fight actually turned out to be design issues that NEITHER Roleplayer accounted for.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> I think we can make a distinction between people wanting things represented accurately or wanting them As Seen On TV![/quote] True, but I still remember vividly people being pissed because things weren't "realistic" enough. Shit, remember when I wrote the fight where Zed Leppelin won? I got shit because I didn't accurately detail the recoil of the harpoon. Which mattered naught, because the opponent's strategy was "take advantage of their inevitable fucking up", which I didn't think was inherent.

Post by **Badnik96** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:59 pm

God this is like the third season in a row where we've found issues with someone's bot after signups close. I thought the staff was supposed to go through everything or something.

GF93 · Post by **GF93** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:07 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Badnik96</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:59 PM</dd></dl><div>God this is like the third season in a row where we've found issues with someone's bot after signups close. I thought the staff was supposed to go through everything or something.[/quote]On that note, I wonder if I'll get away with using Rocket-Propelled Grenades on my next machine?

Post by **That Kode Guy** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:12 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Badnik96</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:59 PM</dd></dl><div>God this is like the third season in a row where we've found issues with someone's bot after signups close. I thought the staff was supposed to go through everything or something.[/quote]Nothing is going to be perfect. We aim for it, but this shit always happens one way or another.

BEES · Post by **BEES** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:48 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 11:07 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Badnik96</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:59 PM</dd></dl><div>God this is like the third season in a row where we've found issues with someone's bot after signups close. I thought the staff was supposed to go through everything or something.[/quote]On that note, I wonder if I'll get away with using Rocket-Propelled Grenades on my next machine?

[/quote]Bad time to mention I found a loophole that allows walking clusterbot ring spinners?

GF93 · Post by **GF93** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:08 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Spatula</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 11:48 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 11:07 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Badnik96</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:59 PM</dd></dl><div>God this is like the third season in a row where we've found issues with someone's bot after signups close. I thought the staff was supposed to go through everything or something.[/quote]On that note, I wonder if I'll get away with using Rocket-Propelled Grenades on my next machine?

[/quote]Bad time to mention I found a loophole that allows walking clusterbot ring spinners?

[/quote]Well, could be worse. Give them some Axe Breakers, and you'll have a total Game Changer on your hands. :P

NWOWWE · Post by **NWOWWE** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:41 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>succotash_54</dt><dd>Feb 10 2014, 10:53 PM</dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>At any rate the main issue comes from the fact that Yellow Cloud is an old has hell design.[/quote] Old, but not obsolete. And I actually evolved the design a little bit, but no one's noticed. There are a lot of familiar names this season too, so I don't think "old" is at issue.[/quote]If the "evolution" isn't more than that one pixel lowering of the wedge you mentioned before I doubt it actually happened. And yes there are plenty of old favorites around, but they've all undergone rather noticeable changes/upgrades.

Compare ToC from the last time Babaganoush competed:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20060107 ... E/toc2.jpg

To how he appears in No Mercy:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/NW ... 543638.png

Simply put I think there's a reason no one noticed any updates to Yellow Cloud.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Well let's be fair, even when you did the scripts you never really included all that "realistic, boring stuff" in those, even though you had full artistic license to do so. And for good reason. No one wants to read that kind of fight or read how bot got caught on cracks in the floor because that happens in "real life".[/quote]

I've written a few misses and getting caught in scripts before, I think. I don't do it in general because it doesn't lend itself well to the scripting process. [/quote]Yeah. That's pretty much on point with what I was saying. I mean sure it's okay if it happens maybe once or twice as an incidental thing, but no one wants to read about bots constantly getting tripped up by mundane things like cracks in the floor.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>but I very rarely come across people RPing about the more mundane things like getting caught in floor cracks or after a spinner hits a bot both just sit around doing pretty much nothing for several seconds. [/quote] No, but I did account for those things in my results. Spinners tended to get manhandled because of low torque inhibited their abilities to get back up to speed in time. I even wrote a results where the key in the fight actually turned out to be design issues that NEITHER Roleplayer accounted for.[/quote] What's this about design issues that "neither RPer accounted for"? You're starting to blur the line between writing and basically RPing in place of the competitors. Sometimes there could be a perfectly good reason something isn't referenced by either RP. If a bot has a really glaring flaw, then pretty much everyone knows it already and people tend to bring it up in their RP's if it's applicable. If it's something that only you've noticed then I would suggest running it by another staff member just to confirm it. Hell I've run such questions past Kody (and vice-versa) from time to time if something occurs to me. I don't presume to say "Oh well I see this as a flaw so now this bot is screwed", because even as a writer I may not be correct on everything.

And low torque slowing up spinners recovery? I don't recall the Torque stat EVER have anything to do with weapon in any shape or form so I have no clue where you came up with that.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div><blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Mostly the season where you lost your bots in the first round of the playoffs and then completely took over ALL of the semi-final results the final week (where the rest of the staff members surprisingly ended up losing) came to mind.[/quote] I took over the results for efficiency's sake. Since I had no dogs in the fights anymore, I was a completely neutral party. Plus, at that time, I was doing overnight shifts at the station where I had the better part of six hours to do as pleased, pretty much. I wanted to keep things running tight and smooth. The staff losing... that was not intentional. I called those fights equitably as I always strove too. That's the flat-out truth.[/quote]Well that's fair enough.

I hope you'd have a similar logical justification for other times such as the one week I happened to have Paul go 4-0 against you during the regular season and then I coincidentally was "given the next few weeks off" with no results to write. Or when you were the head honcho of a season you ended up doing a large bulk of the results yourself. The willingness to shoulder a large chuck of the burden is admirable but that's not quite how a writing staff should operate.

succotash_54 · Post by **succotash_54** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:39 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Simply put I think there's a reason no one noticed any updates to Yellow Cloud.[/quote]
The change is subtle, but I believe significant towards how I will be able to operate the bot. And no, I'm not talking one pixel (which was actually several, just that the last bit (IRL building about 6' to a foot) of the chassis was made one pixel lower to bring it level with the wheels.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>What's this about design issues that "neither RPer accounted for"? You're starting to blur the line between writing and basically RPing in place of the competitors. Sometimes there could be a perfectly good reason something isn't referenced by either RP. If a bot has a really glaring flaw, then pretty much everyone knows it already and people tend to bring it up in their RP's if it's applicable. If it's something that only you've noticed then I would suggest running it by another staff member just to confirm it. [/quote] Hey, I DISTINCTLY mentioned it in the result too. It's not RPing for the player if one guy's attack strategy fails because of the design of his opponent, but said opponent doesn't explicitly mention it as a counter. And I think maybe only one or two seasons of ARC is all I've ever been the guy you sent results to. I submitted all my results to either Chris, or Alex, or you, or whoever was the head guy that season. And I don't think I've ever once had my result questioned or rejected by a staff member. That's the head writer's job, too. But I'm no stranger to running stuff by others either. When Sparkey got his first win? I ran that by someone else.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>And low torque slowing up spinners recovery? I don't recall the Torque stat EVER have anything to do with weapon in any shape or form so I have no clue where you came up with that.[/quote]
Torque determined how far you got flung when hit. Both bots. You can't really get the weapon going up to speed again until you've stopped skittering across the floor. I mean you can try, but it's generally not a sound idea.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div> I hope you'd have a similar logical justification for other times such as the one week I happened to have Paul go 4-0 against you during the regular season and then I coincidentally was "given the next few weeks off" with no results to write. [/quote]
I really don't remember that in such graphic detail. I DO remember we tried doing a rotation of giving writers a break each week to let them recharge. I've been known to hold a 2-car grudge, but I don't think (other than the double-knockouts) I took it out on ARC. The only thing I can think of is that I got on such a roll with writing that there wasn't much work to do by the time I got done.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Or when you were the head honcho of a season you ended up doing a large bulk of the results yourself. The willingness to shoulder a large chuck of the burden is admirable but that's not quite how a writing staff should operate.[/quote]
You mean FRR4? Oh yeah, I got your explanation really easily there... the WHOLE WRITING STAFF DESERTED! Remember it was the same thing when I ended up stepping up as a writer for FRR3 because Viper disappeared? Same thing. We once waited 3 weeks because the people I gave assignments to just disappeared. But the season was too far underway to give up. So yeah, I took over because no one else was doing their fricken job. That's not exactly how a writing staff should operate either. And I'm sorry if the fact that that carried over to how I handled ARC left you with a bitter taste in your mouth regarding me as a results writer. I wrote a shit-ton of results because I was accustomed to being flaked on, which I tried to be understanding about. I realized that people had homework, or lab assignments, or other familial responsibilities to attend to, and as a single guy living 100 miles from his family, I had little better to do in the studio than write results. I was dedicated to keeping things timely, running smoothly and as seamlessly as possible, and keeping the competition going. And this is the thanks I get? Accusations of rigging the competition? I'm not sure whether to withdraw my team out of the competition altogether or demand a spot on the writing staff to show you up for that. I don't care who you are, that's pretty fucking low.

Post by **Badnik96** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:53 pm

lmao @ alex

NWOWWE · Post by **NWOWWE** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:56 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>I was dedicated to keeping things timely, running smoothly and as seamlessly as possible, and keeping the competition going. And this is the thanks I get? Accusations of rigging the competition? I'm not sure whether to withdraw my team out of the competition altogether or demand a spot on the writing staff to show you up for that. I don't care who you are, that's pretty fucking low.[/quote]That's not even close to the point I was making. I wasn't accusing you of rigging things by doing the bulk of the results. Quite frankly I've spent a good deal of time wondering if (and specifically related to the one incident I mentioned) if I had somehow lost your confidence in relation to my writing. If it was only coincidence then that's fine and whatnot, but the timing always seemed strange to me.

You could have let someone else know you were doing the majority of results out of a fear of something like FRR 3/4 happening again, (maybe you even did, but I certainly was never made aware) rather than just shaking it off as "hey it's cool guys I've got it". Team effort and all that. I'm sure everyone involved would have understood.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd> </dd></dl><div>Hey, I DISTINCTLY mentioned it in the result too. It's not RPing for the player if one guy's attack strategy fails because of the design of his opponent, but said opponent doesn't explicitly mention it as a counter. And I think maybe only one or two seasons of ARC is all I've ever been the guy you sent results to. I submitted all my results to either Chris, or Alex, or you, or whoever was the head guy that season. And I don't think I've ever once had my result questioned or rejected by a staff member. That's the head writer's job, too. But I'm no stranger to running stuff by others either. When Sparkey got his first win? I ran that by someone else. [/quote]Okay... but I think it's more efficient to run a question or thought by another staff member BEFORE the result is written rather than relying on them closely inspecting 30-odd results per week. It saves the result from having to be modified if something is deemed off.

GF93 · Post by **GF93** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:11 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Badnik96</dt><dd>Feb 11 2014, 04:53 PM</dd></dl><div>lmao @ alex[/quote]Greatly appreciated- except for the fact that some viper's deleted my seating.

Post by **Badnik96** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:18 pm

Can't be, Viper hasn't been around since like Reckoning :dawg: