The Great Pit Debate

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NWOWWE
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:19 pm

Edited. Wasn't typoed before I posted. Strange.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:20 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 07:19 PM</dd></dl><div> <blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 11:13 PM</dd></dl><div> -and would only open up when one robot has definitely been immobilised, [/quote]
Again, if a robot has definitely been immobilised, then the fight is over. So there is no need for a pit. It would be too unbalanced with regards to the other hazards DURING the fight, and would become completely redundant AFTER the fight, so there's really no point at all in having it. [/quote]
QFT.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:25 pm

I just thought it might be interesting to have there as an optional means of drawing a close to the fight once one's definitely out of it. Not for damage or being cheap or anything, but for a bit of extra fun (And pyrotechnics :v: ) that the winners have a choice to play around with if they want to.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:27 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 07:16 PM</dd></dl><div> So the guy that got upset when one of his bots allegedly got attacked after a fight wants bots to be able to continue attacking after the fight? Gotcha. [/quote]
And again I say...
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:39 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 06:27 PM</dd></dl><div> <blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NWOWWE</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 07:16 PM</dd></dl><div> So the guy that got upset when one of his bots allegedly got attacked after a fight wants bots to be able to continue attacking after the fight?
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:57 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div> If you'd bothered to read it instead of taking a glance and automatically throwing the Hypocrisy card at me[/quote]
Wait, what? What you mean "take a glance"? Was there not a large fallout after that result was written? And have you not referred back to it on several occasions? I don't think I'm in the wrong assuming it remains some kind of relevant point to you.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>it quite clearly says that no unnecessary damage or cheapness is involved, and that it's there as an optional extra feature that robots can have the choice to play around with after the fight's over, be it putting the opponent in or driving in themselves. [/quote]
Yes and it's quite convenient that this form of "playing around" with your defeated opponent plays directly to the type of bots you prefer to enter. Perhaps you can begin to see the obvious double standard here?

What of it if I said wanted to have Robotnik tear apart whatever bot he'd been battling after the fight? This isn't real life and whoever it is won't have to spend real money or time rebuilding it. At the end of the day it's not really any different than driving someone else's broken bot around and shoving it in a hole. It still comes down to showing off and making your opponent look like shit. That's why I only do goofy things to bots in joke (usually FF) results. And exactly what ISN'T cheap about being able to toy around with your opponent after the match ends no matter HOW you're doing it?

If you want to hold a tournament where a bot can do whatever to his opponent after the match, I would not want to hear ONE FUCKING WORD of complaint from you if a spinner jacked the shit out of one of your team members if you have no qualms of pitting/humiliating someone else's bot, particularly with the great glee I've no doubt you'd have doing to an Undercutter specifically.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:22 pm

Certainly with the whole "humiliation" aspect it's a reasonable point, but that's why it's completely optional- so you don't have to do so if you don't want to, but the option's there for if you do, or at least to drive down yourself. That's one of the actual reasons why I'd like it there actually, for some fun with self-pitting after a match.
Likewise, inflicting further unnecessary damage as such would still be frowned upon. Pushing, Flipping, or otherwise moving them around for a brief time would be alright, but attacking with intent to destroy after they've been counted out? Hell no. I'm not condoning completely destroying someone's handiwork for the sake of a few seconds' more airtime by introducing a Pit, I'm not that shallow. Really, it's just for some light-hearted, post-match entertainment value that can or not be chosen to be utilised.


Or at least, that's how I'd seen it. If it's just seen as a terrible self-serving gimmick that plays on double standards, that's fine. I thought it would've been a fairly fun and interesting addition to the Arena, but guess I was wrong.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:25 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 07:39 PM</dd></dl><div> You're starting to piss me off. If you'd bothered to read it instead of taking a glance and automatically throwing the Hypocrisy card at me, it quite clearly says that no unnecessary damage or cheapness is involved, and that it's there as an optional extra feature that robots can have the choice to play around with after the fight's over, be it putting the opponent in or driving in themselves. [/quote]
ExCUSE me??? Yeah right. Considering the obvious vendetta you have against nearly any type of spinner, not just undercutters? How long would it be until you caved in and gave them some unnecessary damage? 1 second at max, I'd bet. Of course, you've hardly ever been sportsmanlike so this should come as a surprise to no one.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 08:22 PM</dd></dl><div>Or at least, that's how I'd seen it. If it's just seen as a terrible self-serving gimmick that plays on double standards, that's fine. I thought it would've been a fairly fun and interesting addition to the Arena, but guess I was wrong.[/quote]

It's a gimmick that works well in Robot Wars. In real life, even. Not in Battlebots fantasy leagues.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:26 pm

OK, I'm done. I'm fucking done.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by That Kode Guy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:29 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 08:26 PM</dd></dl><div> OK, I'm done. I'm fucking done. [/quote]
Really. You're done? Well I had enough when you fucking started it with your attack on Josh.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:42 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>KodeBreaker</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 07:29 PM</dd></dl><div> <blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>GF93</dt><dd>Jul 15 2013&#44; 08:26 PM</dd></dl><div> OK, I'm done. I'm fucking done. [/quote]
Really. You're done? Well I had enough when you fucking started it with your attack on Josh. [/quote]
I wasn't trying to attack him. Sure I was annoyed, but it was at how he'd kept quoting the same statement over and over even though I'd tried to explain I wasn't trying to use it for malevolent purposes, and that I'd provided responses to the initial time he'd posted that.

I don't know why, but it just bugged me- that had given me the impression he had just put it there without being willing to discuss it any further. I mean, if there was a problem with everything after the initial one, I had hoped he'd just say so and provide reasonable critique to my responses so I could think about how to adapt it, instead of the same one-note answer as before.


I realise it was wrong of me to blow up at him like that, for which I want to apologise, but to be honest, it does hurt to be accused of having no Sportsmanship or Dignity over the issue. Yes, I'm competitive and like to win with style, but deep down, I do respect everyone else and their robots. Behind the fighting talk, I wouldn't seriously want to wreck other peoples' work like that.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NWOWWE » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:49 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Certainly with the whole "humiliation" aspect it's a reasonable point, but that's why it's completely optional- so you don't have to do so if you don't want to, but the option's there for if you do, or at least to drive down yourself.[/quote]
Well here's the gag with that. You'd be really hard pressed to find ANY RP in ARC history detailing someone stating they would go after their opponent after the fight for any reason. Any instance you'd find of that happening would have been at the result writer's discretion and completely out of the hands of the participants. Thus why I doubt there would suddenly be an influx of people bothering to add "oh and pit him if I win" or something like that to the end of their RP's because it's not really worth the time. So it would still be on the sole discretion of the writer to decide if that happened, which isn't really ideal.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>for some fun with self-pitting after a match.[/quote]
I'll give you that one as acceptable, but we already have stuff like bots doing victory spins, so it would be kind of redundant.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>Pushing, Flipping, or otherwise moving them around for a brief time would be alright, but attacking with intent to destroy after they've been counted out? Hell no. I'm not condoning completely destroying someone's handiwork for the sake of a few seconds' more airtime by introducing a Pit, I'm not that shallow. Really, it's just for some light-hearted, post-match entertainment value that can or not be chosen to be utilised.[/quote]
Once again the issue comes from it basically being something that only rammers/flippers/lifters can indulge in. Your average spinner can't do any of that stuff, so your idea leaves them holding the bag as far as "post-match fun" goes. Their only options are to, well, spin/attack if they want to have fun.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>. If it's just seen as a terrible self-serving gimmick that plays on double standards, that's fine. [/quote]
Well bluntly, yes. I think even you would admit you make no secret your dislike of Undercutters and indeed spinners in general. Perception rules reality after all, so that's where the disconnect comes from.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I thought it would've been a fairly fun and interesting addition to the Arena, but guess I was wrong. [/quote]
The truth of the matter is that, as you have it set up, it's a gimmick that wouldn't be relevant for the majority of the matchups and thus would likely phase itself out fairly quickly.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I wasn't trying to attack him. Sure I was annoyed, but it was at how he'd kept quoting the same statement over and over even though I'd tried to explain I wasn't trying to use it for malevolent purposes, and that I'd provided responses to the initial time he'd posted that.[/quote]
This is not accurate. I posted it twice. The first time your only comment was confusion since I originally had a typo. You only went after it directly the second time I posted at which point I VERY CLEARLY amplified on my thoughts.

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Quote:</dt><dd>&nbsp;</dd></dl><div>I don't know why, but it just bugged me- that had given me the impression he had just put it there without being willing to discuss it any further. I mean, if there was a problem with everything after the initial one, I had hoped he'd just say so and provide reasonable critique to my responses so I could think about how to adapt it, instead of the same one-note answer as before.[/quote]
See the previous section.

Also, I postulate that it may have bugged you at least partially because you saw a grain of truth in it? Certainly you have your own other reasons, but I don't think I was too far off point there.
Area51Escapee,Jan 30 2011 wrote:
Spatula,Jan 29 2011 wrote: I should go 3-1 this week but it'll probably be something like 0-4 or 0-5.
It sucks going 0-5. You lose all 4 of your bot fights for the week and you also lose at life.

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The Great Pit Debate

Post by NFX » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Alex, the problem is not really that it's going to be any more or less destructive or humiliating than attacking with a powerful spinning weapon. The main problem here is that it is happening after the match is over. As Josh mentioned, you weren't happy with one of your own bots being attacked after the match had ended, but you seem perfectly content to do the same to other people, that's where the hypocrit comments came from. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There are perfectly viable reasons why a pit would be a bad idea in a tournament such as happens on ARC, none of which are because you think it would be good. They've been explained through the thread, so I won't mention them here. As has been said, Flippers and Rammers are predominantly on par with Spinners, Axes and the like, the whole playing field is not solely dictated by your own experience.

There are perfectly valid reasons why your team hasn't been as successful as others, but maybe the first thing to do is examine your own team and your own strategies, work out where the flaws are, and then solve them. I mentioned this in another rant post towards the end of FRR Dead Zone, if I remember rightly. Besides, Translational Spinners are almost definitely more nerfed by the stat system than Rammers and Flippers are, which explains why Scatterbrain performed so poorly in the previous tournament.

Not everyone on this site is going to agree with you. And there will be times when fewer people agree with you than don't, and then the decision isn't likely to fall in your favour. That's an inevitability. There are better things to do rather than complaining about the system, such as trying to better design your robots, stats and strategies, so they will be more effective within the system.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by GF93 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:17 pm

In retrospect, yes- not much basis to it, self-serving, and nothing that'll seriously be bothered with, really. So no. Not worth thinking about- it was a nice idea at the time, but there's no way it could work for fictional competitions.
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On a more positive note, I do have an idea for how OOTAing could work, though- the North and South walls could be completely enclosed like the current ARC Arena (So no immediate Ring Outs on the box-rush, for instance.), whilst the East and West walls could have flip-out "Death Zones" outside the Arena, shrouded with mist from smoke machines hidden under the arena, and lined with Fireproof Mats for flipped-out robots to land on.

These will be protected by higher-than-average internal walls, angled outwards a short way at the top. Tall enough to effectively keep everyone in normally and to prevent the likelihood of fluke wins by accidental OOTAs (Hence the outwards-sloped panels up top, to allow them to slide back in should they land on them.), but still low enough to allow a powerful Flipper to do so with a good shot.

I do think this one could actually work- makes OOTAs harder to pull off, but possible. High risk, high reward almost, but do let me know what you think. If it works, I can provide a design for it.
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The Great Pit Debate

Post by Siphai » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:41 pm

I never liked pits (in the roleplaying environment) because

1. It simplifies things (pit the guy -> win the match)
2. It doesn't work the same way in CFL as it does in real life.

The writer has a hard time utilizing the pit because of how 'cheap' it can be, and they don't want it to be 'unfair' to the recipient of a pitting. In real life, you could pull a Hypno-Disc and succumb to the pit in the last seconds of a dominating match, but how fair is that in an online competition where we barely have measures for how good of driver/how controlled the robot is? In real life at least you can easily measure that skill, but it becomes such a random event in the online game that you feel like it becomes less a game of skill and more a game of chance.

The only way that I would enjoy seeing a pit used would be if someone hosted a tournament where the matches didn't have a time limit. A 'two robots enter, one robot leaves' death match type deal. Almost like Robotica iirc.

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