Metagame Analysis

NFX · Post by **NFX** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:27 pm

That's kinda what I was going for. The one problem I thought that'd bring up was making overpowered spinners more overpowered.

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:18 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Feb 9 2011, 08:27 PM</dd></dl><div> That's kinda what I was going for. The one problem I thought that'd bring up was making overpowered spinners more overpowered. [/quote]
Well as of right now these are the records of the dedicated spinners in Armageddon

The Windmill (2-2)
Shatterpoint (2-2)
Great Red Spot (1-3)
Double Dose (2-2)
Mornington Crescent (1-3)
Holy Kahuna (2-2)
Wrath of the Lich King (1-3)
Y-Combat (2-2)
Ultraviolence (4-0)
AMP (1-3)
Cyclone (1-3)
Parasite (4-0)
Revolver Ocelot (2-2)
Pinpoint (2-2)
Sergent Slaughter (1-3)
Dr. Thwack EVO (2-2)
Count Bleck (3-1)
Japanese School Girl (2-2)
Exotherm III (1-3)
Panda-Mick 2 (1-3)

Hardly overpowered? I'd say it's a small sample size, being only four weeks in, but the sheer mass of averagely competing spinners is telling.

NFX · Post by **NFX** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:30 pm

You do have a point there. However, as far as I can work out, rammers became a common design as a method of winning against spinners. I think you mentioned you built Tank out of frustration somewhere. I haven't been involved since the beginning, though, so I might not understand what went down completely.

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:50 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>NFX</dt><dd>Feb 9 2011, 10:30 PM</dd></dl><div> You do have a point there. However, as far as I can work out, rammers became a common design as a method of winning against spinners. I think you mentioned you built Tank out of frustration somewhere. I haven't been involved since the beginning, though, so I might not understand what went down completely. [/quote]
Prior to the rules we have set out now, we used Torque instead of Traction and there was no self-KO 'rule'. Now, torque only dictated what your pushing power was, which, before wedges evolved, was actually fairly important for robots like Copperhead, Gila, and Reflector Shield.

But it did not matter one iota for spinners. I mean, you weren't trying to push anything anyway right? So each spinner only invested 1 point in Torque, giving 21 points for 3 categories. Armor barely mattered either. During Vengeance there were two robots, Valkyrie and Scrimshaw that both had around 16-19 weapon, and barely any speed, armor or torque. I remember asking (though this is a very long time ago now, so don't take to much out of it) why they didn't self-destruct, and the answer was that someone wouldn't engineer a robot that could so easily self-destruct. Though that very much conflicted with the very concept of armor.

Between Vengeance and Reckoning, one can note a very large increase in power spinners for this very reason. Japanese School Girl, one of the most successful robots with one of the longest winning streaks, had the stats:

Speed: 3
Torque: 1
Armor: 4
Weapon: 14

AMP, another extremely successful robot had the stats:

Speed: 5
Torque: 1
Armor: 3
Weapon: 13

Cyclone, Heart Attack (y-thwack version), Double Dose, Influenza, Jack Frost, Dark Side of Cupid, JOLT, Adreniton, and Rooster Teeth are all robots that excelled during this period with similar stats.

The problem with the rule changes regarding Traction and Self-KO, is that it brought each spinners weapon power down from 13-14, to 10-11. It wasn't hard to see that with the traction rule change, speed would become less of a deciding factor. Tank, Eurypterus, Copperhead, Yellow Cloud, and Underall all had speed stats ranging from 8 (Underall) to 9 (Eurypterus and Yellow Cloud) to 10 (Tank), which was easily out of hand.

However with traction in place. You could easily form an Armor: 8, Speed: 7, Traction: 7 for any rammer. All other rammers would be forced to lower speed anyway, so no harm was done. Except to spinners who would be forced to lower their weapon stat for fear of self-ko.

So essentially out of this, we reduced spinners weapon power by an average of 2-3 points, while keeping rammers armor power around the same level. Mind you, it probably would have been worse previously, considering we had a Passive Armor rule in place that gave a +2 to any passive armor, which included plows, hinged wedges, etc. This was horribly abused by Tank, Eurypterus, Red Hot Fridge!!, and others.

Fish Of Doom · Post by **Fish Of Doom** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:12 pm

Uh Oh It's a Red Hot Fridge!!! was made specifically to make fun of all of the rammers abusing the +2 rule. I almost, almost brought him back instead of Blood Thirsty. I probably should have.

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:17 pm

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Fish Of Doom</dt><dd>Feb 9 2011, 11:12 PM</dd></dl><div> Uh Oh It's a Red Hot Fridge!!! was made specifically to make fun of all of the rammers abusing the +2 rule. I almost, almost brought him back instead of Blood Thirsty. I probably should have. [/quote]
Barrier was a pretty big abuser too, considering all those hinged wedges, and the idea that a hinge could actually be ripped off in spite of an armor score of like 8 or whatever is just unthinkable.

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:19 pm

haha I'm looking over old stats and Striker has even more bullshit stats than Tank did

Speed: 10
Torque: 2
Weapon: 6
Armor: 4

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:23 pm

The amount of rammers with a speed of around 9 during Revolution is fucking insane. Ugh and to top it off that was the season we had that bullshit pin in the middle of the arena haha.

Area51Escapee · Post by **Area51Escapee** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:16 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Siphai</dt><dd>Feb 10 2011, 04:19 AM</dd></dl><div> haha I'm looking over old stats and Striker has even more bullshit stats than Tank did

Speed: 10
Torque: 2
Weapon: 6
Armor: 4 [/quote]
Haha, I know. It was so hilarious that I was able to get away with stats like that back in Revolution.

BEES · Post by **BEES** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:21 am

worth pointing out that all 3 spinners that are doing well are using the exact same strategy: fuck traction

being a hockey puck is the only way you stand a chance

also both of the high-powered vertical spinners are terrible. I don't think that design strategy is viable right now.

NFX · Post by **NFX** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:25 am

If that's the case, maybe combining Traction into the self-KO equation as well might prevent some of the high-powered spinners pinballing about.

I reckon the breakthrough rule about armour might need refining as well, personally. To start with, I though that you removed however many Weapon points you had from the opponent's Armour stat, and that was the amount of hits it would take to break through.

BEES · Post by **BEES** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:47 am

i still think traction will wind up the same way torque did

What's 1 traction? Ginsu? Ginsu got around the arena just fine. That frees up some very valuable points for the weapon.

NWOWWE · Post by **NWOWWE** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:17 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Spatula</dt><dd>Feb 10 2011, 02:21 AM</dd></dl><div> worth pointing out that all 3 spinners that are doing well are using the exact same strategy: fuck traction

being a hockey puck is the only way you stand a chance

also both of the high-powered vertical spinners are terrible. I don't think that design strategy is viable right now. [/quote]
Fuck, I totally should have brought back Rooster Teeth then...

Siphai · Post by **Siphai** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:11 am

<blockquote class='quote_blockquote'><dl><dt>Spatula</dt><dd>Feb 10 2011, 02:47 AM</dd></dl><div> i still think traction will wind up the same way torque did

What's 1 traction? Ginsu? Ginsu got around the arena just fine. That frees up some very valuable points for the weapon. [/quote]
maybe for spinners, but it will still be 'nerf' for rammers. Skate's 10 speed, 5 traction disparity is an example of this.

NFX · Post by **NFX** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:39 am

I still think that spinners might be abusing low traction a little bit. If we made it so that the ratio between the Weapon power of a spinner and its Traction determined how much it rotated while trying to drive in a straight line, that might help a little.